Curse

Francis Crawford · Jun 07, 2006, 11:38 PM // 23:38

I'm having second thoughts on Second Wind.

Ether Prodigy -- somewhere over 40 energy per casting. Can be used twice a minute, or slightly more. Advisable to use when you're low on energy, but can start being used earlier. Causes a little damage. Causes a LOT of damage if you use it before you've spent most of your initial energy.

Second Wind -- can be used twice a minute, with an energy per casting of up to 42 or so once you've built up some exhaustion from prior casts. But only gives that much if you were truly out of energy when you cast it. Causes no damage. Adds some energy beyond the above from being used 4-5 times early in the fight to build up your exhaustion.

Maybe Second Wind isn't so bad after all.

That said, I haven't actually tried it in real life.

LightningHell · Jun 07, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

In my opinion?

Second Wind is too rigid. Prodigy is more flexible. Much harder to manage Second Wind.

Actually, if you get the +15/-1 focus/wand, you can get up to 48 Energy, at the cost of two pips.

Francis Crawford · Jun 08, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Well yes. Using the two items would allow you to gain 15 energy more per casting, ideally, twice a minute, for a total of 30 energy per minute.

But how much of that do you lose back because you actually have to hold them for a while to use the energy?

Francis Demeules · Jun 08, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Well, I started a discussion about Second Wind if you havent forget Francis (not me).

carbajac · Jun 08, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

When I saw Second Wind, I thought that it would cause some major problems. It causes exhaustion and the energy return didn't seem very good since exhaustion is something you would rather stay away from to a point. I saw someone use it in a Guild Battle and often. I was surprised he didn't exhaust himself out of the game because of how often he used it. I haven't tried it yet myself but I was afraid of using Ether Prodigy too until I figured out how to actually use it.

LightningHell · Jun 08, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Well yes. Using the two items would allow you to gain 15 energy more per casting, ideally, twice a minute, for a total of 30 energy per minute.

But how much of that do you lose back because you actually have to hold them for a while to use the energy?

If you use the +15/-1 offhand/wand, you gain 63e (including regen) per 30s. I assume you cast Second Wind once every 30s.

If you use Ether Prodigy (as usual; without the +15/-1 offhand/wand) and have it on for 21s out of 30, we would get 82e. Including regen.

Wait, that doesn't sound right...

Francis Crawford · Jun 08, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Lets suppose Energy Storage is at 13. Then you go into the fight with 69 max energy before items, 84 with a normal item, and 111 with the -regen set.

Let's suppose you cast Second Wind so that you wind up with 55 energy from it at 55 exhaustion (with the last point gone due to slippage). You cast a Fireball or Rodgort's immediately and, realistically, put away the -regen set after 4-5 seconds of unfavorable regen. You're low on energy before long, and wind up having to pull them out one or two more times in the 30 seconds, for a total of 9-12 seconds, i.e. 6-8 forgone energy. You also benefit by 5 energy/30 seconds because you only have to cast Aura once a minute instead of twice, if you're running it. (Which you do with Ether Prodigy as a cover enchantment if nothing else). So you're at an effective return of 50+ per casting, vs. 42 to Ether Prodigy.

What's more, with Second Wind you can have Fire Attunement up all the time if you choose (strippers aside), for 7 energy, whereas with Ether Prodigy it would cost you 20 energy to have it up merely most of the time.

But in Ether Prodigy's favor, you may be able to cast it more than twice a minute in a reasonable fraction of all battles.

The Great Al · Jun 08, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

i still say elemental attunement ftw

Francis Crawford · Jun 08, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

i still say elemental attunement ftw

My preference too, but it has several drawbacks.

LightningHell · Jun 08, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

I don't like Elemental Attunement. Strippage; and the potential energy is only there for Elementalist spells.

anonymous · Jun 08, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

well you say you lose aura and ele attunements, as for aura no self respecting ele should waste a skill on that. You spend 25 energy for a 75 hp heal. As for ele attunements, you dont need them because prodigy IS your enegy management.

Chilly Ress · Jun 08, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Ether Prodigy still best for emanagement imo. Also, very flexible.

LightningHell · Jun 08, 2006, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Ether Prodigy is still best. I wouldn't be playing the Elementalist class if not for it.

Haggard · Jun 08, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

I'm experimenting with it for boon protting.. Hey, I can try, right?

Francis Crawford · Jun 08, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymous

As for ele attunements, you dont need them because prodigy IS your enegy management.

Evidently, I prefer for my character to do more damage than yours does.

LightningHell · Jun 08, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Evidently, I prefer for my character to do more damage than yours does.

In PvE? Right?

Ensign · Jun 08, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Wait, that doesn't sound right...

Ok. 13 Energy Storage. Ether Prodigy guy using an enchanting staff, 79 max energy (though that isn't important). Ether Prodigy gives 44 energy per cast over 22 seconds, net 39. 40 energy regenerates naturally over 30 seconds. Stable exhaustion energy gain of 79 energy per 30 seconds, or 7.9 pips (+3.9 bonus). Can be used with any amount of exhaustion to get this benefit. Trivial to maximize benefit.

Second Wind, with an Insightful Staff, same Energy Storage (84 max energy). Used under perfect conditions every 30 seconds for stable exhaustion - 5 current energy with 31 points of exhaustion. Second Wind is used, exhaustion goes to 41, down to 40 by resolution for 40 energy gain with 40 exhaustion. Current energy goes from 5 to 0 on cast, regenerates just short of 3 by resolution, just short of 4 before you can cast your next spell. End condition of 44/44 energy with 40 exhaustion when next spell can be cast. Net 35 energy bonus, plus 40 energy regen, for 75 energy per 30 seconds, 7.5 pips, +3.5 pip bonus. Must be used in that exact situation (31 exhaustion, 5 energy) to get this benefit. Virtually impossible to maximize.

Same setup, two +15/-1 weapons. 13 Energy Storage (111 max energy). Perfect start condition is 5 current energy, 45 exhaustion. On use, exhaustion goes to 55, regenerates to 54 by resolution. Energy goes to 0, regenerates to 1 by resolution, 2 before you can cast anything. Second Wind gives back 54 energy, net 49. End state - 56/57 energy, 54 exhaustion. Can't do anything with that odd energy unfortunately. Two pips of regen return 20 energy over 30 seconds, net energy 69 over 30 seconds, for 6.9 pips (+2.9 pip bonus).

The +15/-1 foci are not good with Second Wind, though you aren't punished as severely for going onto them. You can approximate the no-swap scanario by swapping up after Second Wind and only swapping down to keep going, but you're going to have so much exhaustion to use this optimally (27 max energy on first focus using the sets above) that you'll never be able to sit on first focus for long, and probably won't get more energy out of the exchange than you would if you had never swapped in the first place.

Due to the weaker returns, the inflexibility, the requirement that you sit at awful exhaustion, and the cast time, Second Wind is strictly inferior to Ether Prodigy as a long term energy solution, by a very wide margin.

Interesting cases: ramping up for more energy while building exhaustion.

Ether Prodigy: Cast every 22 seconds, permanent 6 pips of regen. 68 net energy and change every 22 seconds, net +5.3 pips regen. Accumulate 2.6- exhaustion over 30 seconds.

Second Wind, maxed ramp: fired off on recharge. Net 97 extra energy over 30 seconds from 5 casts, net +9.7 pips regen. Accumulated 40 exhaustion over 30 seconds - right into steady state mode. Percentage of those 30 seconds spent casting Second Wind: 45.83-% Energy in surplus of Ether Prodigy in that 30 second window: 44.

Second Wind, Prodigy level exhaustion accumulation: One cast every 22 seconds. 13 casts before you hit steady state wall. Net energy returns of 4, 7, 9, 12, 15, 17, 20, 23, 25, 28, 31, 33, 36. Total energy returned: 260 over 266 seconds. Average net pips: +2.93. Over the last 6 casts: 176 energy over 6 casts of taking 134 seconds. Average net pips of the 'power zone' on Second Wind: +3.94 pips regen at Prodigy level exhaustion usage. Second Wind never outperforms Ether Prodigy when used at Prodigy levels of usage.

Second Wind, powered every 15 seconds from 11 to 40 exhaustion: 5 casts for 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 net energy over 62 seconds. 125 energy net, +6.04 pips regen over those 62 seconds. Energy over Ether Prodigy during those 62 seconds: 8.

The situation where Second Wind outperforms Ether Prodigy is over short timeframes of less than a minute. The ability to spam Second Wind in those situations allows you to net upwards of 40 more energy in less than 30 seconds, though scaling down to around 10 at the minute mark. This benefit, however, comes at a serious cost to your time spent casting, and thoroughly trashes your exhaustion in the process. The cost to casting time is significant enough to nullify the energy benefit entirely. For example, when maxlining Second Wind over 30 seconds, you only have 16 seconds of free time in which to cast spells with your extra 9.7 pips of energy. The only spells in the entire game that can consume energy at that rate, in that timeframe, would have 15 energy costs and 1 second cast times, or 25 energy, 2 second cast spells. For all other spells, casting time is a bigger limit than energy, spacing out the Second Winds even more and minimizing the benefit.

Hence, in a straight comparison between the two, there is no reason to use Second Wind over Ether Prodigy. In order to justify using Second Wind, you need to have a build that uses other enchantments, which cannot be used with Ether Prodigy, or you must be playing in an environment where Ether Prodigy is unreliable due to enchantment removal (but Second Wind is not unreliable from interrrupts). Straight up, the two aren't even close.

Peace,
-CxE

Francis Crawford · Jun 08, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Thanks for the very detailed analysis, Ensign. It's pretty convincing.

I am confiused by one thing, however. It would seem that one could swap weapon sets, then immediately swap back down to have 25ish max energy, and methodically cast 10-15 energy spells (which are the sweet spot of most elementalists' skillbars anyway, especially if exhaustion is an issue, with perhaps the single exception or Rodgort's Invocation).

If you addressed this scenario, I misunderstood some of the lingo and missed it.

anonymous · Jun 08, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Evidently, I prefer for my character to do more damage than yours does.

Um did a miss something on the attunements that add damage to skills?

Francis Crawford · Jun 09, 2006, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymous

Um did a miss something on the attunements that add damage to skills?

No, but it requires energy to cast damaging spells.